Led bulbs

ledbulb

Hi, what do you think about led bulbs ? I think about open online shop with them.

Capt'n Midnight

might be worth checking out boards.ie terms and conditions re advertising / commercial interaction


LED at present are too expensive for anything other than localised or low level mood lighting. CFL completely wipes them in cost per watt - Atlantic had them for 10W / €1 less than 1% of the cost of LED - and there isn't enough difference in electrical efficiency to choose between them.


Also LED Laser is about twice as efficient as LED - and so represents a real improvement in energy usage over CFL - , so until that comes along CFL is the best choice unless there is something particular you need.

Yes LED last longer, but the only benefit is to be seen as an 'early adopter' as the cost of LED will drop before any investment at current price will pay off.

No point in spending €50 to replace a €2 CFL when you aren't saving on the electricity. You will probably be able to buy two LED's with the €50 by the time you replace the CFL

ledbulb

I agree that CFL are good choice when we talk about bulbs, they are cheap and efficient, but if we talk about spotlights things look different, Led Gu10 base or MR16 are worth to consider. Price almost the same, better efficiency and lifetime.

Capt'n Midnight

ledbulb wrote: »

Led Gu10 base or MR16 are worth to consider. Price almost the same, better efficiency and lifetime.

Only because the cost of non-standard bulbs here is extortionate

If I had my way I would ban E27 fittings here, B22 is just so much better.

E17 you can get CFL for but ouch on the cost , it should be similar to E27 ones.

Gu10 / MR16 are designer sizes that you can't fit CFL into easily at present,

ledbulb

You right, and as i know Gu10/MR19 thats 90% of market when we talk about Led light sources today.

coalminer

You guys are so out of date - I came on here looking for advice on which colour temperature is best for my kitchen. I got mine from [modedit] ahem [/modedit] and the price was good so I don't know what captain is on about! Has anyone tried the cool white bulbs - I'm not sure if they are too clinical looking???

Kintarō Hattori

Post reported my friend.

Capt'n Midnight

The ones I got were CFL 24W 1445 Lumens Osram €2 and they fit into standard fittings.

None of the LEDs on that site match the lumens per watt.
so NO energy savings over CFL despite costing 30 times as much to buy , not including fittings

until LED's are replaced by lasers (cf. BMW headlights ) then CFL's still offer the cheapest source of light

Capt'n Midnight

coalminer wrote: »

oh - and BTW - your favoured CFLs will not dim!!!

actually some of the €2 bulbs I got had 0.3W LED + 11W CFL selectable by flicking the light switch. Works for me.

And again no need to change any light fittings.



Anyway for those looking for general advice on LED lights.

IMHO the point is LED's are niche products - if you want mood lighting or specific colours - but for general make a room bright purposes I expect them to be replaced by more efficient products before they can payback any major investment in them.

http://wot.motortrend.com/bmw-shows-us-how-its-laser-headlights-and-dynamic-lightspot-work-126103.html Once you go above the lasing threshold BMW reckon their head lights use half the power of equivalent LED's

coalminer

Captain - where did you learn maths?

Lets say that you run a shop, maybe a jeweller shop where there are 50 x 50W halogen bulbs and you are open 10 hours a day and you are open 300 days per year.

50 x 50w = 2500 watts per hour
divide by 1000 to convert to units (or KwH) = 2.5 units per hour
1 unit is approx 12c
therefore 2.5(units)x10(hours)x300(days) = 7500 units over the year or 900 Euro

The average saving on a LED bulb is 90% as these would be replaced with 5W bulbs which would cost only 90 Euros to run per year with an annual saving of 810 Euros

Cost or replacement bulb is approx 10 euros each so total cost of 500 euros

Therefore you start making saving from month 8 onwards.

ROI is 8 months not including the cost of replacement halogens, maintainance (maybe getting an electrical engineer in for health and safety) and they last 25 times longer - so you don't need to change them. Actually they last around 50,000 hours which on the above example is 16.6 years!

I don't see laser lights coming out before then!

ledbulb

One detail, coalminer where can you buy good replacenent of 50W halogen for 10 EUR?
I know the answer, you can't.
Good replacement cost you about 15 Eur. 2700K, min 280 lm (real lm not fake lm)

shedweller

For what its worth;

I bought a bunch of LED gu-10 bulbs for the kitchen and the light was ok but on the dim side. They also lasted about a year. CFL's last much longer. From my experience.

paddy147

shedweller wrote: »

For what its worth;

I bought a bunch of LED gu-10 bulbs for the kitchen and the light was ok but on the dim side. They also lasted about a year. CFL's last much longer. From my experience.

CFLs are out of date now.

Philips have a lovely range of LED GU10s.

I have my entire house kitted out in them.

Dimmable too (with certain dimmer pannels).

Lovely warm light quality.:)

ledbulb

unfortunately a lot of products on the market is bad or no quality and very often they come with no guarantee, thats the problem.

Capt'n Midnight

coalminer wrote: »

Captain - where did you learn maths?

Lets say that you run a shop, maybe a jeweller shop where there are 50 x 50W halogen bulbs

Like I said LED are niche.

Are halogen's even legal here anymore ?

In case you missed it CFL completely wipe halogens.

50w halogen is 400 lumens / 5W LED is about 400 lumens
50x400 lumens = 20,000 Lumens light in the shop 250 watts of LED's


a €2 24W CFL is 1445 lumens
14 of them will get you 20230 lumens 336 watts

so replacing CFL with LED will save 86 watts

a saving in your example of 86w * 300d * 10h = 258 units per year
At 12c a unit that's nearly €31 per year :rolleyes:

How many years will it take at €31 to pay for the 50 x 5W LED installation and fitting (and you must include financing costs in your answer) Because by then I reckon Laser will replace LED for lighting.


http://www.gizmag.com/test-subjects-dont-mind-laser-light/20300/

To create white light, the beams of blue, red, green, and yellow diode lasers are merged,
...
When all was said and done, it turned out that there was a "statistically significant preference" for the laser light over that of the warm and the cool LEDs. There was little difference between preferences for the laser, neutral LED or incandescent lights.

ledbulb

paddy147 I would not want to offend you but you can buy much better bulbs now, this lamps are nice but only 170lm,

paddy147

ledbulb wrote: »

paddy147 I would not want to offend you but you can buy much better bulbs now, this lamps are nice but only 170lm,

No offense taken

I know what Im happy with,after trying out several types of LEDs.Its gives that lovely warm honely feeling and just the right amount of light and spread for all of us.

My girlfriend and daughter and the rest of my family and her family love too.:D

shedweller

ledbulb wrote: »

paddy147 I would not want to offend you but you can buy much better bulbs now, this lamps are nice but only 170lm,

Do tell! Because i have to replace a few. I need to know whats good and whats not good.

cram1971

ledbulb wrote: »

paddy147 I would not want to offend you but you can buy much better bulbs now, this lamps are nice but only 170lm,

I was going to say something similar. Led technology is moving along so quickly and prices dropping at the same time

paddy147

@ Ledbulb

Whats your price then?

Whats your LED bulb aswell?

What guarentee do you give?

Thanks.:)

cram1971

Have a look at some of these

http://www.litehouse.ie/lamps.html

http://www.aurora.eu.com/ProductPages/ListCategory.aspx?b=5&c=13

Some of these can be sourced a lot cheaper than the Philips bulbs and the 7.5 watt are excellant give about 400-500 lm depending on colour so v close to Halogen

ledbulb

Capt'n Midnight-what about service and lifetime?How often you have to change CFL ? I think about 5 times X 2Eur each =10Eur
good LED= lifetime 40000 or even 50000 hours
CFL 8000 hours

In shop example light is on for 3000 hours per year so LED will last for about 13 years while in this period you have to change all your CFL's five times

so savings 31 Eur x 13years= 403 Eur and replacement of 14 CLF x 2Eur x5 =140 Eur total 543 Eur ( if you replace them yourself and if they will be still 2Eur for next 13 years and if prices of electricity will be at the same level as they are now) don't mantion mercury from 70 CFL bulbs.

And i dont think you can create nice light effect with 14 light sources insted of 50.

ledbulb

paddy147, if you and your family like them thats fine i said only they are stronger bulbs on market now but two years ago why not, (and price for this model of your lovely PHILIPS is fine )

paddy147

ledbulb wrote: »

paddy147, if you and your family like them thats fine i said only they are stronger bulbs on market now but two years ago why not, (and price for this model of your lovely PHILIPS is fine )

So can I have a spec of the GU10 light please,that is the same or similar as the Philips Master 4 watt 2700k 40 degree GU10.

What guarentee do you give?

And what price too??

Thanks.:)

ledbulb

one moment

ledbulb

Can't find data sheet for GU10 base but that's the same bulb with differente base. They come with 3 years guarantee.

Phibsboro

I'm fascinated with this thread, came to it via the front page rather than being a follower of the forum.

I have 7 50w halogen GU10's in-ceiling lamps in my (small!) front room. I love the light they give and love that I can dim them down to change the athmosphere. I am aware though they must be costing me a small fortune to run so I have looked at various points at alternatives. I got a CFL one as a test and it was grand but it didn't dim despite saying it would on the box - it went from full to virtually nothing.

I have also looked at LED's but some of the pictures/vids available seem to show either a gloomy light or else a perceptible blue tinge.

Seeing this thread inspired me to look again, one of the sites listed above mentions a dimmable CFL from Megaman. But then I ended up on that product's Amazon page and had a look at the comments - this whole area just seems to be a scam! Is anything other than halogen really suitable as a dimmable in-ceiling light source for a domestic situation?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0017KJMKG/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R2Y0ZRWEUC7W1K

ledbulb

I have found 6W options dimmable GU10

[IMG]http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/I have found 6W option dimmable GU10[/IMG]

Capt'n Midnight

ledbulb wrote: »

Capt'n Midnight-what about service and lifetime?How often you have to change CFL ? I think about 5 times X 2Eur each =10Eur
good LED= lifetime 40000 or even 50000 hours
CFL 8000 hours

In shop example light is on for 3000 hours per year so LED will last for about 13 years while in this period you have to change all your CFL's five times

<yawn>

CFL 10,000 hours so only 4 changes. Total cost of lights €112

Point is that I expect to see LED's replaced by Lasing LED's with up to twice the efficiency within that time frame so you won't get the savings and current LED's will be power wasting devices by then.



Let me try that again. I think it's crazy to invest in 100's of watts of LED's for general lighting when we know that something twice as efficient is being commercialised. Lasers give off less heat and scale up better than LED's so they may well be cheaper than today's clusters of LED's. CFL's are just a bridging technology to give us light until then.


BTW the record for a solid state laser is 25KW

And i dont think you can create nice light effect with 14 light sources insted of 50.

just exactly which part of niche don't you understand

ledbulb

we see when they are on the market, maybe you are right, but we don't know when and for how much?

paddy147

So how can you reccomend lights that are not even on the market or for sale???
No price either,even though a price has been asked for.

I dont understand that and how you can say that they are better than trusted brands that are on the market and in use.

I dont understand how you can say this???

Cedrus

ledbulb wrote: »

Can't find data sheet for GU10 base but that's the same bulb with differente base. They come with 3 years guarantee.

It can't be the same bulb with a different base, GU5.3 is 12V and GU10 is 230V. They might look similar but you'd be trouble if you managed to plug one in.:eek:

On a quick look they do seem to be going in the right direction Cree are a good name and 3 decent LED cells is much better that the 30-60 ****e cells that have been the norm in cheap LED lamps, BUT, I can't see how 3 x 1.5 W adds up to 6W

The lifetime is given as 35000 hours but is that at L90 or L50? Without stating the Lumen depreciation, the hours are meaningless.

Peanut

Phibsboro wrote: »

Seeing this thread inspired me to look again, one of the sites listed above mentions a dimmable CFL from Megaman. But then I ended up on that product's Amazon page and had a look at the comments - this whole area just seems to be a scam! Is anything other than halogen really suitable as a dimmable in-ceiling light source for a domestic situation?

Search for "auraglow" on Amazon, they seem to get good reviews, and also have dimmable GU10.

ledbulb

I like to said that about laser lights not led lights

paddy147 wrote: »

So how can you reccomend lights that are not even on the market or for sale???
No price either,even though a price has been asked for.

I dont understand that and how you can say that they are better than trusted brands that are on the market and in use.

I dont understand how you can say this???

paddy147

ledbulb wrote: »

I like to said that about laser lights not led lights

You have failed to answer me though.

I asked you for a bulb comparable to a Philips Master 4W 2700k "GU10" 40 degree spread and dimmable.....(not the MR16 you posted)

I asked you for a guarentee.

I asked you for a price too.

ledbulb

I think nobody who ever have experience with this kind of bulbs will belive in 320 lm, o the market is kind of lumen race most of the time fake lumens.

coalminer wrote: »

In response to ledbulb you can get them here from 9.71 euro each http://www.lightrabbit.ie/glass-covered-21-x-5050-smd-gu10-led-bulb-3-5watt-320-lumens.html

I think these are the most popular type as i have seen them in lots of places.

As for Captain - i think you have lost the plot coz your figures are now made up. You have confirmed that the lumen output is the same for 50 Vs 5 watt LED bulb so that is surely a 90% saving???

BTW. LEDs produce approx. 90 Lumen per watt and CFL are only 50 Lumens per watt so your numbers are flawed!

So to summarise:
1) LEDs are more efficient
2) They give better light
3) They look better
4) They come in more fittings
5) they last over 2x as long as CFL
6) Almost forgot this one - they don't contain harmful metals such as mercury
7) Typical return on investment is under a year.

I really cant see Captains case for CFL - it think he must have been poisoned by eating one ;-)

ledbulb

I'll give you all answers but not tonight . good night

paddy147 wrote: »

ledbulb wrote: »

I like to said that about laser lights not led lights

You have failed to answer me though.

I asked you for a bulb comparable to a Philips Master 4W 2700k "GU10" 40 degree spread.....(not the Mr16 you posted)

I asked you for a guarentee.

I asked you for a price too.

paddy147

ledbulb wrote: »

I'll give you all answers but not tonight . good night

Why cant you reply to me now??

What is so hard in answering my 3 simple questions here???



PS-You were very quick to tell me that my Philips GU10s are not the best and are old,but you aint so quick to reply to me now and answer my questions.

cram1971

paddy147 wrote: »

PS-You were very quick to tell me that my Philips GU10s are not the best and are old,but you aint so quick to reply to me now and answer my questions.

The Philips Master bulbs were good in their day but even Philips have replaced them with a better bulb note sure of the price

http://www.philips.ie/c/-/led-4-w-20-w-gu5.3-cap-warm-white-8718291192800/prd/;jsessionid=447234E5B5C79644AB33AF2327DC1352.app102-drp2?t=specifications

Re op and price the guy is thinking of opening a business and perhaps reluctant to release a price until he can research the market. Ant hence the original post.

A market in my opinion already fairly flooded.

ledbulb

They use the same led chip for gu10, 6W because they measure all lamp not only chip they use, so all lamp use 6W

Cedrus wrote: »

It can't be the same bulb with a different base, GU5.3 is 12V and GU10 is 230V. They might look similar but you'd be trouble if you managed to plug one in.:eek:

On a quick look they do seem to be going in the right direction Cree are a good name and 3 decent LED cells is much better that the 30-60 ****e cells that have been the norm in cheap LED lamps, BUT, I can't see how 3 x 1.5 W adds up to 6W

The lifetime is given as 35000 hours but is that at L90 or L50? Without stating the Lumen depreciation, the hours are meaningless.

ledbulb

paddy147 niviss - 3 years guarantee-50000 hours lifetime- 12,30 eur

ledbulb

Look at this bulb this is 5W guarantee 5 years

Macha

[mod] People, this is not adverts.ie. Keep your discussion to a general discussion of light bulbs. [/mod]

ledbulb

Thanks, i have my business but this in this place we can discuss only , as you said this bulb is a bit old and in this days there is more other new products.

cram1971 wrote: »

The Philips Master bulbs were good in their day but even Philips have replaced them with a better bulb note sure of the price

http://www.philips.ie/c/-/led-4-w-20-w-gu5.3-cap-warm-white-8718291192800/prd/;jsessionid=447234E5B5C79644AB33AF2327DC1352.app102-drp2?t=specifications

Re op and price the guy is thinking of opening a business and perhaps reluctant to release a price until he can research the market. Ant hence the original post.

A market in my opinion already fairly flooded.

Capt'n Midnight

coalminer wrote: »

As for Captain - i think you have lost the plot coz your figures are now made up. You have confirmed that the lumen output is the same for 50 Vs 5 watt LED bulb so that is surely a 90% saving???

BTW. LEDs produce approx. 90 Lumen per watt and CFL are only 50 Lumens per watt so your numbers are flawed!

figures given in this thread are 80 L/w vs. 60 L/w - I don't have a figure for laser but below the threshold a laser behaves as an LED , above it's far more efficient.

Also the 90% only relates to the now illegal incandescent not to CFL

Dising CFL by using the energy consumption of incandescents is just the sort of thing dishonest marketing people do - and the www.asai.ie will kick you to bits over

So to summarise:
1) LEDs are more efficient -

slightly better than CFL, worse than laser

2) They give better light -

LED's are exactly like CFL it mostly depends on the phosphor used, unless you use tricolour LED's. I would rate this as dishonest too

3) They look better
4) They come in more fittings -

any economies evaporate when you have to buy new fittings

5) they last over 2x as long as CFL

so what ? CFL are dirt cheap to replace and you can buy them in a local shop, LEDs aren't remotely cheap in your local shop

6) Almost forgot this one - they don't contain harmful metals such as mercury

CFL's are down to mg amounts of mercury , anyone with fillings has a lot more mercury in their mouth
compare to the ban on lead in electronics, we still allow Kg's of it in virtually every motor vehicle.
NB. LED's have waste disposal problems too, especially heatshields and the by products of sulphuric acid used in processing waste LED's , like hybrid cars they aren't as green as the marketing people would like us to believe

7) Typical return on investment is under a year.

citation needed - compared to incandescent maybe , dishonest when talking about CFL's - Anyway on that basis payback time for a €2 CFL is one week (100w * 167h * €0.12/Kwh )

I really cant see Captains case for CFL - it think he must have been poisoned by eating one ;-)

And it's very hard to accept a case for LED's based on a comparison to incandescents

/me hates halogens they are way too bright and harsh , have ruined many a nice pub.

No Lasers aren't commercialised yet.
BMW probably won't be releasing the i8 until 2013.
Allow a year or two for production wrinkles to be ironed out and the costs will start to drop enough for others to use them. (prediction based on what's happened with every other LED technology that been released on the market) I'd expect LED prices to drop anyway over the next few years regardless - another reason to ignore long payback times compared to CFL - but faced with a light source twice as efficient they'll fall even faster.

Simple question how much have 5W LED's dropped in price over the last few years ?
Would it have been cheaper to have used CFL's for that time and bought LED's at todays prices ?

LED's are fine for niche markets, and perhaps new build. But for retrofitting and general lighting purposes the writing is on the wall

BTW
The laser diodes are 10nm long so cooling won't be the problem it is for thicker LED's (not to mention that they will need less than half the cooling)

zagmund

Here lads, you're losing me . . .


3) They look better
4) They come in more fittings -
any economies evaporate when you have to buy new fittings

I thought one of the advantages of LEDs over <some other option> was that they fitted into existing fittings. Did I miss something ?

I understood halogen required new light fittings, but CFL, LED & incandescent (old skool) just used standard fittings that have been built into houses for the last 60+ years. Did I miss something ?

CFL bulbs used to be big and while they would fit in to sockets, quite often the length of the bulb meant that existing shades were too small but I thought that had all been addressed in the last few years.


z

Capt'n Midnight

zagmund wrote: »

I thought one of the advantages of LEDs over <some other option> was that they fitted into existing fittings. Did I miss something ?

LED lamps for standard UK/Ireland Bayonet fittings are usually more expensive than those for Edison screw fittings.

I hate Edison screw fittings since you have to tighten the bulbs again every few months.

One common mode of failure for CFL's is capacitors in the bulb failing through over heating. I would assume the same for LED's that fit in mains sockets since they also need to reduce voltage. See http://www.badcaps.net/pages.php?vid=4 for more info on the general problem of capacitors in consumer goods over the last decade.
Yes it has gotten better since the problem was publicised. But while LED's can last 50,000 hours cost savings on some other components can undermine this. Best to stick to brand name LED bulbs if going for mains voltage ones.

Macha

Mod Edit

It should be noted that ledlamp is in the business of selling LED lamps, in fact the Philips lamp mentioned above is most probably one of his largest competitors.

It is not clear if the "5W NIVISS LED" that performed so well in the referenced test is sold by ledlamp or not.

Armed with this information readers can make up their own minds on the impartiality of the tests posted above.

Capt'n Midnight

Update.

Turns out I was wrong.
Atlantic now charge €2.19 for the CFL's :eek:

And the €2.19 Energy Saver + LED bulb is 8W/400Lm in CFL mode and 0.3W in LED mode.

http://www.osram.com/osram_com/products/led-technology/lamps/led-2in1-lamps/duled/index.jsp - The Atlantic one is normal UK/IRE B22 bayonet fitting.

Walkways and corridors
Children's rooms
General illumination, night-time lighting and background
lighting

They are very handy for night lights , or for hall lights , or to just have a little bit of light in the room while watching TV. And much cheaper than a dimmer switch or separate LED.

0.3W means it would use a fiver's worth of electricity a year going 24/7 in my case this is a lot cheaper than trying to fit a second light switch at the other end of the hall. About the only thing cheaper for this purpose would be pound shop solar powered lights, but they have nowhere near the same level of brightness.

coalminer

Captain - there is no point in continuing this debate. You are obviously deluded and twist the facts to suite yourself. I honestly don't care much about your opinion and to state that CFL are better than LED is just nonsense. If you did your research properly you would know that LED lights come in retro fit form and there is no rewiring required and they look most like traditional halogen lamps. LED look better than those horrible spiral lamps and off course LED don't need time to heat up as the give instant 100% light output.
The list goes on and on and there really isn't any need to get so defensive about the whole thing. Just accept that you are wrong.
I will not be replying to any more of Captains comments as it is like debating with a baby.

paddy147

ledbulb wrote: »

Hi i like to say that philips master 4w is no competitor of Niviss 5w this are two differente products ,maybe new 5,5 w philips but not 4 w i just say there many products on the market are much better than this model i didnt know that this is philips master fan topic. Ill try to make few pictures of both lamps working together so everyone will see how they perform thanks.

So why dont you go and buy the Philips 5W and test them along side your LED bulbs before you go "Philips bashing".:rolleyes:



"Engage your brain before opening your mouth".

PS-Nothing more than a marketing/sales ploy from you,as suspected by everyone in the "electrical forum".